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‘Safest’ seat remarks gets Muslim family kicked off plane – CNN.com
January 1st, 2009 [Civil Rights, General]
15 Comments »‘Safest’ seat remarks gets Muslim family kicked off plane – CNN.com.
Oh please. The airline can’t possibly believe it behaved appropriately, particularly since even the freakin’ FBI told them everything was fine. If a white family was discussing the safest place to sit on an airplane, people would just chuckle and think they were a bit paranoid and plane-phobic. A Muslim family discusses the safest place to sit on an airplane, and suddenly they’re terrorists? God forbid people should just be a little freaked out about hurtling hundreds of miles per hour through the sky in a giant hunk of metal?
Besides, not to be crude, but how often do terrorist hijackers worry about the safest place for them to sit on a plane they’re going to crash?
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January 1st, 2009 at 11:30 pm
I agree with you.
The Airplane company owes them an apology.
January 1st, 2009 at 11:58 pm
If I had been one of the passengers on that plane, I would’ve gotten out and taken my family with me as fast as I could. Better be safe and alive than dead being politically correct like this blog’s author. If other people think differently, so let them. It’s their choice.
To this blog’s author,
if those people turned out to be terrorists who later blew up the airplane, would you still make fun of the passengers who reported their suspicious activities? You’d probably turn the blame game on the FBI and the airlines instead for “not doing enough” to stop them despite the “warnings” from other passengers. It’s always someone else’s faults, isn’t it?
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:02 am
I’m encouraging everybody to write to AirTran and express their disgust over this. Do so here:
http://www.airtranairways.com/contact/contact_us.aspx
January 2nd, 2009 at 1:19 am
You can not fault the airlines for being too careful after 911. I don’t think they should apologize for being cautious and trying to protect people. The safest place on the airplane is an odd thing for a whole family to be talking about when they board a plane. One time my son and I were at the DMV after 911 and he was only 6years old. He said very loudly, ” I know how to make a bomb!” Security ran over and then I had to explain that he was talking about a vinegar and baking soda volcano he had just made at school. Another time he went up to a police man in 7-11 and told him that he lives in a house with tons of guns everywhere. I had to explain to the cop that his older brother had just started boot camp for the Marines and was talking to him about all of the guns. Both times I had to explain what my son was talking about after 911. We are all more cautious now and that is a good thing.
January 2nd, 2009 at 2:06 am
Dark Rose, nobody’s saying they shouldn’t have investigated. But did you read the whole story? They were questioned and were determined not to be a threat. When you and your son went to the DMV and he said he knew how to make a bomb, the security ran over, which was the right thing to do. But I assume that after you explained yourself and they determined that you were no threat, they did not proceed to kick you out of the building and refuse to allow you to take care of your business at the DMV. And I’m sure once you explained your son’s Marine enrollment, the police let you keep shopping at 7-11, and didn’t kick you out without allowing you to buy anything. In this case, the family wasn’t just questioned. They were questioned, cleared, and then STILL refused access to the flight they had paid for, to take the vacation they had planned. THAT is what the airline did wrong, and THAT is why these people are angry at the way they were treated.
January 2nd, 2009 at 2:37 am
Ground Zero,
1) Would terrorists planning to hijack a plane speak in English before the plane took off, so their conversation could be overheard and their plans foiled?
2) Since when are terrorists concerned about safety? Hijacking a plane is a suicide mission.
3) They weren’t talking about bombs or guns or weapons or which area of the plane gave them access to the cockpit. Those things would raise suspicion. This family was talking about which area of the plane would be safest in the event of a crash. They were American citizens, a guy, his wife, brother, sister, and kids. on their way to Orlando for a vacation. They had every right to board a plane and wonder which area is safest if the plane went down. It’s not an unusual thing to think about. I usually spend half of every flight worrying that the plane is going to go down. And don’t they still start every airplane flight with a video about what to do in case of emergency? The “safest area of the plane” conversation is not uncommon to hear, particularly on value airlines where seats are not assigned and you get to pick your spot.
Regardless of what they were talking about, this country has millions of visibly Muslim citizens, millions more who could be mistaken for Muslim based on their skin color, name, accent, or religious garb, and still millions more who are Muslim but cannot be identified at first glance because they don’t look like your stereotyped image of a Muslim. The vast, overwhelming majority of those citizens are just like the vast, overwhelming majority of citizens who do not fall into those categories: regular ol’ American citizens. You can’t just arbitrarily decide what they can and cannot talk about on an airplane, without enforcing the same rules on everybody else. I have no doubt in my mind that if this was a white family from Texas, they would 1) never have been pulled aside and interviewed by the FBI, but 2) also would have been allowed back on the plane if they *had* been investigated. What is the alternative – keep every person with brown skin and an accent out of airplanes, for all eternity?
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:25 am
You’re making a lot of faulty assumptions here.
1) Terrorists don’t speak English.
2) Terrorists don’t talk about safety.
3) Terrorists can’t be white.
4) Terrorists can’t be US citizens.
If I were a terrorist, I would just do exactly what terrorists are NOT supposed to be doing to disguise myself. I’d be speaking in English, talking about safety, being white from Texas, American citizen, etc. Very easy. Is that what you want?
Here is my question to you:
If you had been a passenger on that plane along with your family, small children, parents, husband, brothers, sisters and pet, and then all of sudden you saw other passengers panicking over a suspicious terrorist activity aboard, what would you do next?
A) Perform an in-depth analysis using the false assumptions and broken theory you have above and mix it with a heavy doze of blind political correctness in an effort to convince yourself terrorism only exists on television and it will never happen to you or your family. You then just relax and enjoy those cheap airline peanuts.
B) Take your family out of the airplane as fast as you can.
Please be honest.
I know I’d do Option B in a second.
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:01 am
Does anyone remember the case of Flying Imams in Minnesota?
6 imams did suspicious activities by praying loudly in public and criticizing the US government and then got reported by other passengers and held by the FBI.
They, along with CAIR – a terrorist front group, decided to sue the airlines AND the passengers who reported them!!!
So basically if you reported a suspicious activity by a Muslim, you would get sued!!!!
Most people thought that these imams did their suspicious activities in purpose (now they are called the Lying Imams) so they could be held “wrongfully” and then sue everybody in an effort to benefit monetarily and silence the passengers (to make it easier for future hijacking, perhaps?).
Luckily, Congress saw their evil intention and considered this lawsuit against passengers as a security threat and quickly enacted a law that protects passengers from being sued for reporting a suspicious activity even by Muslims.
The imams and CAIR later dropped their lawsuit against the passengers.
January 3rd, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Nope. Never heard of it. I do recall an Orthodox Jewish man also being removed from an airplane because he wouldn’t stop his prayers until he was finished.
As for your first question, I’m not assuming anything of the sort. I think the Oklahoma City bombing pretty much shows that terrorists can be anywhere and anyone. But these people WOULD NOT have been removed if they had not appeared visibly Muslim. I’m not claiming terrorists don’t speak English. I’m not claiming they can’t be American or white. I *am* claiming that terrorists who are planning to hijack a plane are probably pretty clear that it’s a suicide mission and aren’t really going to give a shit where the safest seat is. But that has nothing to do with anything here. This family was removed because they were Muslim. That’s the bottom line.
As for the comment about American citizenship? That wasn’t to exempt them from being a threat. It was to point out that American citizens are *supposed* to have certain rights and freedoms, and we are not supposed to live in a police state. Why are some American citizens presumed guilty by the color of their skin or their religious affiliation, while others get to pretend they’re a part of “real America”? Why should American citizens be treated as foreigners?
You say if you were a terrorist you would disguise yourself by speaking in English and talking about safety, being white, from Texas, etc. Well, that’s just great. While the white terrorist from Texas is getting on board, no problemo, the Muslim family who’s just trying to get to Orlando is being interrogated by the FBI. Perfect.
Why don’t we just ground all planes and never let anybody fly again, since we can’t really be sure if anybody’s a terrorist anymore?
January 3rd, 2009 at 1:48 pm
p.s. you just know that Joe McCarthy is jerking off in his grave right about now…
January 3rd, 2009 at 7:57 pm
So which option would you have taken? A or B? I need to hear it.
You said “I *am* claiming that terrorists who are planning to hijack a plane are probably pretty clear that it’s a suicide mission and aren’t really going to give a shit where the safest seat is.”
Again, you’re making several faulty assumptions here.
1) Terrorists only do suicide missions. Nothing else.
How about hijacking the plane and taking it to a muslim country and then torturing and killing all the passengers on live television without the terrorists committing a suicide? Is that possible?
2) Terrorists only hijack the plane. They will not simply blow it up. They have to hijack.
Have you heard of the shoe bomber? He wouldn’t have needed to hijack the plane. He would’ve just blown it up, if he had not got caught.
3) Terrorists never talk about where the “safest seat” is.
How can you be ABSOLUTELY sure that the “safest seat” is NOT a code word for the “best seat” that would create the greatest damage to their aircraft when they detonate a bomb?
When you are inside that airplane that’s about to take off and see something “suspicious”, you have to make a life-or-death decision right there right then whether to report it or to ignore it. There’s no time to play the political correctness game and bet with your life and selfishly other passengers’ lives.
What would happen if those muslims turned out to be real terrorists and some passengers had noticed their suspicious activities but chose NOT to report them?
Would you blame these passengers like you do now? What if the terrorists managed to blow up the airplane and kill your loved ones? Would you still think those passengers did the right thing for not reporting their suspicion? Yes or no?
It is very dangerous to criticize people who report a suspicious activity. If you keep doing that, no one will report anything, the terrorists will be happy and innocent people will die. Is that what you want? Yes or no?
You said “This family was removed because they were Muslim.”
The muslim terrorists are at war with us, have been blowing up our airplanes and killing thousands, and publicly announce they will continue doing so. Not all muslims are terrorists. But nearly all terrorists are muslims. Are you saying we all need to IGNORE these FACTS???? Yes or no?
January 4th, 2009 at 2:06 am
Ground Zero, those are pretty useless options to give me. I could easily say to you, if somebody gave you a pencil, would you stick it in your ass or in your eye? They’re stupid and irrational options, so the question cannot be answered by selecting one of those options. I would do neither.
1) Terrorists hijacking a plane know very well that they only have limited time with which to carry out their efforts before they are shot down. We’re not in the same world as we were in the 70’s, technologically speaking. There’s no way they could evade the US military. Even 9-11 happened before the onset of GPS, which is everywhere these days, even in your phones. The flight to the Middle East is damned long, and there is virtually no way that terrorists who have studied flying well enough to fly a plane that long will believe that they’ll make it all the way without being shot down. So while they might not *want* it to be a suicide mission, they are going to be quite prepared to die when they board that plane.
2) Wow, do you even read what you write before you post it? Do you really think the shoe bomber gave a fuck where the safest place in the plane is? You think he expected to survive that crash? Seriously? Even if he didn’t get blown up by the bomb he was setting? I didn’t say terrorists can only hijack planes. But if terrorists are going to do anything to the plane after it’s in the air, odds are they are prepared to die, and the goal is to take civilians with them.
3) Paranoid much? They were literally having an actual conversation about how people say the wing is the safest, while the engine, not so much. It’s a real conversation with real meaning. I mean, for all I know, your name “Ground Zero” is the place you’re planning to attack next week. How do I know you’re not a terrorist? Maybe I should have you detained.
That said, do you understand that I’m not saying the passengers should not have reported the family? I disagree with it, but I don’t fault them for it. But the family was interrogated by the FBI and determined not to be a threat. At THAT point, the airline should have rescheduled them for a later flight and let them take their vacation. They refused. THAT is what I am criticizing.
Holy moly, where did you learn your logical reasoning skills? Are you saying that every Muslim American should now automatically be suspect? Were you in favor of Japanese internment in World War II? Were you cheering for the US government when it rounded up all Japanese American citizens and put them in camps like animals in a zoo? Yes or no?
Listen. Not all straight men are child molesters, but the vast, vast majority of child molesters – nearly all, in fact – are straight men. Therefore, every time a straight man says something nice, kind, or polite to a child, we should have him questioned to see if he is a child molester, and even if he’s determined to be clean, we shouldn’t allow him within 50 feet of elementary schools because there’s a CHANCE that he might molest them. In fact, perhaps we should just not allow straight men to be near children at all. And while most families do not suffer from child molestation, a great deal of child molestation is perpetrated by male family members. Perhaps straight men should just never be allowed alone in a room with a child, regardless of relationship.
Can we ignore these FACTS and live our lives risking the safety of our children by assuming that men who are nice or polite (or just related) to children are NOT child molesters?
January 4th, 2009 at 2:16 am
Ground Zero, btw, that’s not even getting into the fact that YOU are assuming incorrectly that most terrorists are Muslim. Most terrorists targeting the United States are Muslim. But the United States isn’t at the center of the universe. There are plenty of other countries that deal with terrorism, and it certainly isn’t all at the hands of Muslims.
January 5th, 2009 at 1:24 am
I just scanned your post quickly. I don’t think we’ll ever see eye to eye. That’s okay.
Ground Zero is not the place I’m going to attack next. It’s the place I live nearby.
Have you ever smelled the burning of 3000 humans’ flesh from INSIDE your home for weeks? I’m sure you haven’t. That’s why you think terrorism only exists on television and it will NEVER happen to you.
I was going to refute each of your points like in my previous posts, but it would be useless. You will never get it. So I’m going to ask you this 1 critical, actually 2, questions again to get to the point:
1) If those suspected people had indeed turned out to be real terrorists planning to blow up the airplane, WOULD YOU STILL CRITICIZE THE PASSENGERS WHO HAD REPORTED THEM? YES or NO?
2) If those passengers had chosen to IGNORE their suspicion instead (as exactly how you want them to do) and as a result the plane had been blown up midair killing hundreds of innocent people, WOULD YOU NOW WISH THOSE PASSENGERS HAD REPORTED THEIR SUSPICION? YES or NO?
Please answer the 2 questions above directly. They are easy questions with a yes/no answer.
January 5th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
For the love of all that is sacred and holy, I DID NOT SAY THE PASSENGERS SHOULD NOT HAVE REPORTED THEM! I DIDN’T SAY THEY SHOULD HAVE IGNORED THEM.
Did you even read what I wrote?
The passengers did what they were supposed to do, and reported their suspicions. Then the airline did what it was supposed to do, and escorted them off the plane. Then the FBI did what it was supposed to do, and interrogated the family, and determined that they were not a threat. Once that happened, the airline FAILED to do what it was supposed to do, which is to allow them to get to Orlando. I was criticizing the airline for refusing to allow the family to fly once they were cleared. Yes, I believe they were removed because they are Muslim, and yes, I think that is a damned shame. But the only people who did what they were NOT supposed to do is the airline, AFTER the family had been cleared. You are trying to force me into your own box based on things I did not say.
No. I do not live in New York. But living in New York during 9-11 doesn’t give you a monopoly on perspective. Were you surprised by the World Trade Center attacks? Did you think it could never happen? Did you feel safe up to then? Because I sure as hell didn’t.
Let me ask YOU a question – did you grow up living in fear every time there was an international crisis involving Israel, because all the local synagogues, and community centers, and Hebrew schools (including yours), would receive bomb threats?
Were YOU in Israel for your bat mitzvah when Arafat returned from exile after 20-some-odd years? Extremists have a bloody odd way of celebrating such things (literally).
You ever stand in an elevator next to a guy with fatigues and a machine gun and pray he really is just a soldier?
Did people pissed off about international conflicts start going into your local community centers and airport terminals shooting up innocent people like it would change anything? On multiple occasions over the years? I was at LAX when the El Al airline was attacked. My friend’s cousin was killed there. A local JCC was shot up by a white supremacist. The list goes on and on.
Do you have to check in with your friends every time there’s a crisis in Israel, just to make sure everybody’s still alive? Do you wring your hands and worry every time a friend or relative goes home to visit his/her family, takes a vacation, makes aliyah, or goes to school, because they just might not make it back alive?
Were you raised from childhood with the full awareness that you were *not* safe from terrorists? Or did you just learn that on September 11, 2001?
Maybe you already knew. I don’t know. But you’re not the only one. I may not have experienced a terrorist attack firsthand, but I am certainly no stranger to the constant presence of genuine and justified fear and worry, and the reality of the world we live in. I’ve grown up with that knowledge. It’s not a novel concept.
That said, America is fighting to defend our freedom – which is what they want to take away from us – and people come to this country to get away from the sort of oppression that these extremists would very much like to impose on our nation. When it gets to the point that we are willing to relinquish our freedom and subject ourselves to the whim of the government and what it says is “safe,” what are we fighting for anymore? Have we really won?
(Now, Bush, on the other hand – HE thought we were invincible. HE FAILED to investigate the leads he had. He FAILED to entertain the possibility that we might be targeted. The Republican-controlled Congress during the Clinton administration insisted that the discussion of terrorism was nonsense (thanks Dick Cheney), and that it was merely being raised as a distraction to the Lewinsky scandal.)