Obscanity: You'll know it when you see it

I frankly don’t understand the protests…the people of California defined that marriage should be defined between a man and a woman. All the arguments for gay couples being allowed to adopt children makes no sense either…it is unnatural. If the gay couples want children, why are they not creating them as our bodies are clearly designed to do?…because it doesnt work. Defining being “gay” as qualifying anyone to be a member of a minority is absurd. We can create a zillion minorities from different variations of what people choose to do that is different or out of the norm regarding their sexuality or various preferences…it simply has nothing to do with being recognized as being a minority. I don’t have a problem with gays having their relationships or doing what they want with each other but don’t involve children that were created from heterosexual relationships or try to portray “marriage” to children as anything but being between a man and a woman. If it were not for traditional marriage and the use of our bodies as they were designed the homosexuals would strictly not exist because they cannot reproduce themselves from their very relationship model.

The logical argument FOR gay marriage is only as valid as the following argument.

1. US States have laws that ban performing a certain biologically necessary function in certain places.

2. This biological function is necessary and individuals are born physiologically compelled to perform it. This is a scientific fact.

3. While all laws permit this act for all people, they do not permit it in the manner some people are born wanting to perform it. There is no dispute that many are born with a compelling, strong, fundemental need to perform this act in a manner banned by the laws of virtually all US States.

4. Because all people are not born the same, laws that do not permit this act to be performed in the manner some people are born “wanting and needing” to perform it, the equal rights of a minority are being violated.

Therefore, all laws banning people from dropping their pants and defecating in a public street should be struck down because they impose the majorities’ values and preferences on a minority in an area where all people have a strong, innate, biological need for relief.

Grant, your argument about biology means nothing in today’s world. There are millions of children who need homes who are not getting them because they are not infants, or are not white, or have disabilities. Gay couples adopt these children in higher percentages then straight couples do, giving them a happy, stable family structure they would never have been able to have otherwise. Additionally, gay couples can and do procreate. It’s the funniest thing – last I checked, my uterus still works, as do my ovaries. I will have children, and they will be biologically mine, and I’ll do it without having heterosexual intercourse. You will not stop me. And my children will know they were not an unwanted accident like so many children of straight unions. And Grant? The very fact that you justify your argument with “I don’t have a problem with…” shows me that you do indeed have a problem. If you didn’t, you would know that being gay is not about who you fuck. It’s about who you love, and about who you share your life with. And you know what else? I guarantee you that if everybody on this planet was gay, reproduction would still occur, and it would happen without heterosexual intercourse. Unlike the ancient Hebrews, we educated gay people actually know how reproduction and fertilization work. We know you don’t need sexual intercourse in order to fertilize a human egg. We know it takes raw materials, not sexual acts.

Reality Check, that is virtually identical to the argument used by opponents of interracial marriage.

They said that thousands of years of tradition dictated that people procreate within their own race.

They said children would be confused if they had parents of different races.

They said God put us on separate continents because he wanted us to remain separate races.

And they said… wait for it… a black person has the EXACT SAME RIGHT to marry somebody of the same race as a white person has to marry somebody of the same race.

It’s amazing how unoriginal you people are.

And your argument about public defecation? God, I hope you have gay children. For your sake. For their sake, I hope not. Someday you will learn. In the meantime, could you please go start a campaign against dihydrogen monoxide, that colorless, odorless, tasteless killer of millions, and stop wasting my time with ridiculous analogies?

It seems that parts of society like to define the “norm” according to judaic-christian tradition which states sexuality between “man” and “woman” and nothing else is the “norm”. Moreover, the only way for them to be recognized is when they procreate. I guess having a look at nature will show us (and there is increasing scientific proof) that sexuality out there is a lot more diverse than moralist authorities would have liked to imagine.
Speaking of adoption and children in gay couples, if we drop the whole judaic-christian tradition and morality and have a look at what is REALLY happening, look at children that have actually grown up in gay and lesbian couples, we can see that they live lives that are as happy as the lives of children from mixed couples, maybe a bit more openminded even. Their problem is not a problem of “identity” because of the lack of some father or mother figure but rather the judgement of some moralist parts of society out there claiming that the children are not growing up in a naturally desired way. Where does the problem come from? The relationship with their parents or the way they are treated by “some” parts of society?
Last but not least, if we have a look at the different results based on age groups, we can tell that in California, the majority of young people voted AGAINST Proposition 8. Apparently society is changing, and it is only a matter of time until a majority will realize that the moralist values that judge homosexual couples are going to be a thing of the past. Sad for the ones that got married now, hope for the near future!

BTW Myself, I have been happily observing a gay couple of storks that has been living in the north of the Netherlands for a long time. I don’t think they are not normal OR that they picked this country because they like to live in a country where they can legally live together with all the legal rights that also apply to mixed-sex stork couples :).

One last comment, on a website that was in favor of Proposition 8, homosexuality was qualified as a “lifestyle choice”. I don’t know any homosexual how chose a lifestyle as if it were a moment in your life where you chose to either be heterosexual, bisexual or homosexual. You discover your sexuality, it is NOT object to change (even if some claim they managed to hal themselves by CHOSING to become religious in a certain way!). All a homosexual person can do, is accept this part of his or her life. A part of life that is not “visible” like a colour of skin but something you have will need to discover and integrate in your life.

What this means is that America isn’t ready for this yet. Right now people are scared about the economy. Their 401k has taken a beating, their house isn’t worth what it was and they’re not sure if their job will be around in 6 months. If they ( gay movement) push too hard, they could encounter a backlash that could set them back a generation. Be patient and smart and you will get there in 10 years.

in response to Lee I dont think that myself,my family or anyone with the good sense to understand gods true word would be glad to visit or even view your church if the truth of your present and past beliefs were known you fight against gay marriage but believe it fine to have more than one wife at a time, religions that charm snakes how much more odd and absurd can you get. I for one along with half of the civilized world are tired of the blurred lines between church and state and will fight until those lines are clearly drawn your beliefs past or present are not mine and the last time i checked i was still a tax paying citizen of this country and no matter what my sexual orientation (by the way i am straight) i deserve to make my own choices without some religious crack pot or my next door neighbor iterfereing in that so bring it on Lee i”m glad to see these people standing up against you and your kind

A lot of Blacks, and Latinos voted this election day, and this is a big part as to why Proposition 8 went through. I think Obama should speak on this issue. But he should support the voters, and take up for this great democracy.

Paul, the Yes on 8 people are the one reporting to the media that their victory was the result of the minority vote. It is not true. They are trying to stir up resentment between LGBT and other minority communities, and shift the blame from themselves. The truth is that we could have gotten another 20% of the black vote and still lost on Prop 8 – but 1-3% of the white vote would have flipped it. The truth is they were running a campaign of misinformation, and anywhere between 5-10% of voters thought they were voting for gay marriage. This wasn’t helped by the fact that Yes on 8 called THOUSANDS of voters in the weeks before the election and told them they were from the Gay and Lesbian Center, reminding them to vote Yes on 8 to protect gay rights, if they said they favored gay marriage. We even had people coming up to us ON THE DAY OF THE ELECTION who weren’t sure what a yes vote meant and what a no vote meant. People are confused by double-negatives, especially when the confusion is reinforced by the Yes campaign.

In any event, constitutional revisions and major changes are NEVER, EVER subject to a simple majority. Didn’t you wonder why it would take 50.01 percent of the vote to CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION while it requires 2/3 of the legislature to approve the state budget? Minor amendments only take a majority vote, but major constitutional revisions such as this one require much more.

Prop 8 was wrongly submitted to the people. It flies against California’s laws regarding constitutional revision. The court did not remove it from the ballot because they didn’t feel they needed to decide on the law until it was determined whether or not it would pass. But they will hear the argument now.

You make it sound like the victory was overwhelming. It was not. The margin was a mere 500,000 – in California, that is not much. You’re talking about 5.6 million saying yes, and 5.1 million saying no. The “will of the people” argument does not work here, especially because of the mass confusion as to what a yes vote meant and what a no vote meant.

At no other time in history has a *simple majority* been able to take rights away from people in this manner. Our federal constitution requires THREE FOURTHS of the states to approve an amendment. The Prop 8 people filed this initiative incorrectly; it is not a simple amendment of technicality, but a major revision, because it eliminates the Constitutional requirement of equal protection under the law by removing rights from a suspect class, and it eliminates the right of the court to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority, which is the PURPOSE of the judiciary in the first place. As a revision Prop 8 required approval of 2/3 of the legislature before it could even be put before the people. They did not do this.

As for the argument somebody made about bigamy…. this is like saying that a person should be allowed to be in a domestic partnership with one person AND be in a marriage with somebody else. You’re getting rights twice. The purpose of limiting bigamy, in my opinion, is preventing people from “double dipping.” When you marry, you merge your legal identity with that of another person, and become a single family unit. You can’t do that if you have already merged and become a single family unit with somebody else. You can’t get a tax break on one marriage and then turn around and get an additional tax break on another marriage.

Now, if a husband and two wives all want to join as a single family unit, I really don’t care – but they will ALL be mutually responsible for one another, the two wives will be married to each other as well as the husband, and you will have to allow two husbands to marry one wife too – it can’t be limited to only husbands having multiple wives.

They will split their spousal pensions, and if one of them leaves, he or she might wind up paying alimony to both of the two remaining people. And they will ALL have child custody and child support obligations to the children of the marriage, regardless of who actually gave birth. If that’s okay with you, then I really don’t care. But one person does not get to be individually and separately married to two different people at one time. It is receiving the same benefit twice.

Paul,

from the get go voters had no right to vote on such an issue to begin with marriage is a very personal thing between the parties involved and god NOT the next door neighbor and you these things should never be put to a popular vote they should be reserved for such things that involve the whole community and peoples personal lives (and i use that term loosely now) are just that personal

C2- I agree.
Being married to 1 person seems to be hard enough, I dont know why you’d wanna be married to more than one lol.

Phil- I understand what you are saying, although in essance is like having told the African Americans back in the sixties, to just hold up a bit, we’ll treat you like equal human beings in 10 yrs..Its hard to swallow, but I agree, one must know when and where to choose battles…

Sammy- You are terribly mis-informed. Illegals, dont get to vote. Even legal residents/immigrants DO NOT have the right to vote.You have to be a citizen. Dont believe the lies.

Paul you said:
“Who’s going to stand up for the vote of the people? This is a democracy. The majority vote has spoken!”

This is why there is a CONSTITUTION.Its intended to PROTECT the rights of minorities and keep them from being DISCRIMINATED against from a Majority. Any law that Discriminates any group, be it a majority/minority is UN-CONSTITUTIONAL, period.

The definition of marriage is between a man and a woman in California. This does not limit people from living with a person of the same sex, it only does not allow them to call this bond marriage. Marriage is between a man and a woman. Men and women compliment each other in the most beautiful way that nature allows and together, given that everything is working, they can produce children.

Same-sex partnerships allow two people to get to know each other very well and to share many life experiences. Same-sex partnerships don’t allow the two people to produce children or compliment each other in all the same ways that marriage allows for (although in general two people most likely do compliment each other in many ways, it is not in the same ways as a man and a woman compliment each other).

Defining marriage between a man and a woman is simply a way of reminding people that for our society to progress and to bear children and to have them nurtured in the best environment we need marriage, we need unions to exist between a man and a woman.

Larry I some what agree with what you say, but the bottom line
is that it was put to a vote, and Prop 8 passed. I really want to reiterate my point is the value of the Vote!!
Please let’s preserve our right to vote, then let’s protect that vote after it’s cast.
I’m not saying anything against Gay Marriage, or racial at all. It’s all about the vote!!!

Using our bodies as they were designed?

You’re basically limiting our bodies design to be those stated in the bible – that it is for procreation.

Innately, our bodies take care of themselves. When we have urges to eat, we do. When we’re thirsty, it’s because we must drink. When it’s tired, it sleeps. When our bladders are full, we pee. When we’ve got to go, we go.

The bible says having s*x with a woman on her monthly is forbidden as well but we all do it.

We’ve got all kinds of bells and whistles on our bodies that I don’t think should be defined by a bible. Men have orgasms when the prostate is aroused. Woman have orgasms anally as well.

If that wasn’t natural in some way, then why are we born that way? Are you saying that some of our natural bodily functions are good while some are bad?

Straight guys love a finger up the rear too.

Shall we make anal and oral illegal? Cause you know, that must not be what our bodies were designed for because it doesn’t result in procreation.

I was stunned to hear that 70%+ of Blacks & Hispanics supported Prop 8, Arizona & Florida! If it is that easy to discriminate against your fellow minority, how easy will it be for a right wing activist to put on a ballot to discriminate against Blacks & Hispanics. Over-turn State statutes, State courts, hell even Federal statutes! Blacks & Hispanics forget they are 13% & 15% minorities! We must stick together as minorities, not put wedge issues between us.

Blacks are quick to say that it isn’t the same struggle, but it is, whether they admit it or not! Discrimination is what it is, Discrimination! White churches still speak out against Blacks, doesn’t make it right, so I’m quick to defend Black interests! Not anymore, what they showed me on Prop 8 is they only care for themselves! Blacks have come along way in 40+ years, but it doesn’t take long to fall, either!

Without the support of other minorities and Whites that have compassion on Blacks & Hispanics struggles, you wouldn’t be where you are today! Think about that when you allow bigotry & prejudices to influence your lives! With Prop 8 so easily crafted to throw out a State Supreme Court ruling, how easy will it be for them to throw out Civil Rights legislation? Didn’t think about that, did you? Black & Hispanics have lost my voice for their causes and their struggles! End Affirmative action, control our boarders, and throw them all out on their ears!

What there needs to be is a Federal Amendment to ban special interest ballots or ballots all together! I also noticed Abortion Bans on several State ballots, but they didn’t pass!

Oh Paul. You are so naive. Within 20 or 30 years, the anti-religion movement in this country *will* have the voter support to pass amendments and legislation to restrict the rights of the religious – and they will do it, because they see what happens when the religions are given too much power, and they are jaded as hell. Nobody wants to have religion imposed on them – so they will find technicalities and loopholes, and they WILL vote to restrict religious rights, especially in states like California. When that happens, do you want the courts to protect you against the tyranny of the masses, or do you want them to throw up their hands and talk about the will of the people? Think carefully about that answer.

Whoa, Iron_queen, who on earth gave you the idea that it was the gays who got Prop 8 on the ballot? Prop 8 was placed on the ballot by the anti-gay Mormon Church and the Alliance Defense Fund, and they were collecting signatures for it LOOOONG before the Supreme Court ruling came down. *They* did this in order to lay the groundwork for suing to take away domestic partnership rights. I don’t know how you came up with the idea that we were the ones who asked for this, but you’re incorrect.

Incidentally, just what rights would you have lost if Prop 8 had failed? You would still have the right to get married. It’s not like there is a limited number of marriage licenses to go around. You would have lost *nothing* if Prop 8 had failed, except maybe eventually your irrational sense of self-righteousness and your ability to point to the law and say that it proves you are better than me. You have no right to privilege yourself by barring me from my rights. This is exactly what the Constitution forbids.

By the way… your “gay friends”? I sincerely doubt they forgive you for voting Yes on 8, if they even know you did. Oh, they’ll say they understand your right to your opinion… but unless they’re self-hating conservative closet-cases, they probably secretly wonder why you think you’re better than they are. Because you’re not.

Clark, how can you possibly say you’re approaching this from an unbiased point of view when you view homosexuality as a disease?

See my previous comments – I guarantee you that if we all suddenly woke up gay, reproduction would still continue – but at a much slower and more controlled pace because there would be the truest form of birth control – as in, people would control when they gave birth, and there would be NO accidents.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe nature is trying to tell us something by providing homosexuals in every generation, throughout human history? As in, “Hey humans – slow the fuck down”? The human population will soon be far beyond what the planet is capable of sustaining. There is already mass hunger and drought throughout the world, and people die every day simply because they could not get sufficient nutrition and hydration, or because they live in such close quarters that a single incident results in massive casualties (disease, buildings collapsing, earthquakes, etc).

Gay and lesbian parents have children too, and they do it biologically – but they do it responsibly, when they have the economic and emotional resources to be good parents. Gay people are fertile people, even if they choose not to have genital contact with the opposite sex. If the whole planet turned gay all of the sudden, there would still be plenty of sperm, and plenty of ova, and PLENTY of turkey basters to go around. Although the people who wrote the Bible didn’t really understand this, the raw material is really all you need for reproduction. It doesn’t matter how it gets implanted. There would still be plenty of children – just not so many as to become unsustainable.

Believe me – the planet would thank us.

I am leaving this information hopeing that someone will see it and pass it on to other fair minded people that are tired of being taken advantage of go to the website 365 gay click on gay bans embolden cons. religious groups scroll through the letters there until you see a website in one of chucks letters that says mormons stole our rights .com there you will find a petition to strip them of their tax exempt status along with other a lot of other helpful inf. pay special attention to the sign something website

Paul- I do see what you are saying, Its just flawed.

The constitution PROTECTS the rights of minorites (not racial, just a minority whose right are at risk) In this case gay rights.

NO law that discriminates is CONSTITUTIONAL, no matter if voted for or not. It simply does not work that way.

No rights are taken away from people in traditional marriages, if gays are allowed the same rights, yet rights ARE BEING TAKEN away from a certain group of people due to their SEXUAL preference. THAT is DISCRIMINATION. DISCRIMINATION is UNCONSTITUTIONAL. No matter vho voted for what. Its like arguing to vote on segragation, its UN-CONSTITUTIONAL.

Paul, what, just because my identity could get me killed in another part of the world, I should be satisfied that here it only reduces me to second-class citizenship?

Pray for me all you want. God knows better than to listen to people like you.

Paul, I am a second class citizen. I have fewer rights than you have, based solely on my gender and sexual orientation, both of which are immutable. We can agree to disagree, but in the end, the law needs to treat us equally whatever our personal beliefs are, and right now, it does not.

The vote is *one* part of democracy – but it does not supersede the other parts of our government, despite what people may think. The constitution is another part of democracy, and the people cannot vote to amend the constitution in a way that contradicts the rest of the constitution. You can’t say, “We have religious freedom, except we vote to exclude this one particular religion.” And the judiciary is still another part of democracy, which was designed to preserve the rights of the minority against… the vote. Unless you support racial discrimination, you cannot tell me that the vote should be the highest power, because the vote has supported racial discrimination time and time again, only to be stricken by the judiciary, which is just doing its job.

I’ll say a prayer for you too.